Meeting #3 - 4/16/05
Agenda
-Listen to Gene Robinson’s talk at Planned Parenthood, go over both/and vs. either/or sheet.
-Listen to Ravi’s talk, “Who is Jesus? Defending Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life,” given at the Mormon Tabernacle on Nov. 14, 2004. Discuss.
Present: Rob, Karl, Mark, Jon, Mike
Thoughts on Both/And vs. Either/Or:
Karl said that even at the sex-ed meeting, people were using the either/or to prove the both/and. I pointed out that it’s difficult to point that out to people.
Mike asked how we could even ever do that.
“That’s why we’re here,” I said.
Mark: We know that we have the truth, but we also know we don’t have everything figured out. What I’m trying to do is always learn people from. Addressed Robinson’s view of God—“If you have a God as he defines it, what is that God like? Everything is okay, and as soon as you get there you can let everything play out. He’s okay with everything. So what is holiness? You’re talking about right and wrong, good and evil. Hagel – came up with the idea of dialectic, an idea and its opposite meet in the middle - the basis of postmodernism, that is there are no absolutes.
Mike: Trying to apply this to real life, when you hear someone talk about sex ed, what are you hearing that makes you think about this kind of a conversation.
Jon: They have gone after the authenticity and veracity of Scripture, but I can’t think of any ways that they’re using the both/and system of logic. I’ll think about that.
Mike: I’m a girl but I have the body of a man. That’s a clear way of doing that…The Bible has clear answers, but there is scary stuff in the world that Christians don’t want to think about. Some people are born with a penis and a vagina. It sucks.
Rob: Made a point that the reformed view of predestination is a both/and view. When the both/and is involved, I’ll allow for the supernatural, but I don’t know how we can allow for that without the supernatural.
Mark: We can agree that there is a both/and…If you can look for common ground in any conversation, that’s good, then try to build a bridge to absolute truth…If a guy doesn’t believe in absolute truth, then you can’t do anything with him.
Mike: I do believe there is gray, and I do believe there is black and white. There are places where black and white breaks down, and I do think that’s what bothers a lot of these people, who are the secular leaders and minds of the world, is Christianity’s unwillingness to look at this gray thing and say, “No, I don’t know.” Just like sex ed, why these people are going after the Bible so much is there are places where children are born with both organs. What does the Bible say about that? There are things the Bible doesn’t have an answer for. There is gray. If there is going to be any kind of fruitful dialogue between the black and white, Christian conservatives and the both/and, liberal seculars is that you have to convince them of the possibility of black and white, and you have to tell them that there is gray.
Mark: Humility is what Mike is talking about. A lot of people view Christians as Bible-pounding and arrogant. We’re going out into a world where a lot of Christians have paved that ground.
Mike: I also think a lot of Christians are scared of not knowing everything, of not having an answer. That’s where Christians feel in a corner. You feel a lot of one-dimensional talk that you’ve heard before, because they’re scared—they don’t know how to deal with it. Christians need to learn to not worry about losing an argument—you can look at it as listening and taking other people’s points of view into your thinking.
Jon: What do you need as a Christian to not fear not having all the answers.
Mark and Rob: Faith.
Rob: It’s the root of humility…You claim that there is an all-powerful being that is in control and that you’re under but you contradict that with your actions.
Jon: Robinson immediately started talking about stories when he spoke of the Bible. Narratives are what postmodern minds connect to—Jesus and C.S. Lewis showed that stories have a way of disarming people’s defenses. We need to think of ways to talk comfortably and conversationally about stories, in the Bible or completely from outside the Bible, that represent truths of the Bible and truths of the gospel—the represent reality. What stories do not deliver, however, is immediate results, so we will need to be content with planting seeds.
Mike: It’s good to win arguments. You got to shake people up. It’s both/and…When someone says something to you—it’s almost depending on who you’re talking to. If you can see the things to say to someone that can really help them to understand God better, then do that, but there are times when some of the things you say aren’t’ useful to people. You have to be willing to let them say what they’re going to say and then incorporate that into your argument.
Jon: What do we need to know what to say to people and when.
Karl: You have to know your audience. Most people don’t want to speak about logic, but you need to able to argue logically to talk to people like Gene Robinson.
Mike: There are nuances—there is truth in what he said. But it gets to a point where he stops speaking truthfully.
Rob: He combined intellect and skillful logic with love. For the everyday man how do we gain an audience? I think it’s through love and service, and really doing it, not just because we want another notch on our belt b/c someone is saved, but unconditional love, down and dirty love for others and care for them.
Mark: If we can outlove the liberals, then you defeat the basis of so much of their effectiveness. You can love someone who is opposed to you, because you were opposed to God and he loved you…
Rob: 95 percent of our lives is lived in the one on one. That’s something we can all do…I don’t have the gift of writing, but I can love. Most humans can love.
Mark: We’re dealing with a lot of preconceptions that people have because Christians have not been loving…I can have 1,000 conversations in my life, but if I have a framework for what I want to do each time…that’s what I’m after. I just practice it.
Mike: We live in a time that’s trying to mesh it all together and figure it all out. You look at mankind—we’re depraved, we’re sinners, but Christians and non-Christians are trying to make things better through law and technology…
Mark: Possible assignment: find examples of what did Jesus do to break down arguments but still address the person.
Adding people:
Karl: The bigger this group is, the harder it is to do this.
Mark: If there was a good dynamic I wouldn’t want to rock the boat.
Mike: Let’s pick one. Whoever’s gonna add the most.
Rob: He initiated it.
Mark left. We listened to Ravi’s talk.
-Listen to Gene Robinson’s talk at Planned Parenthood, go over both/and vs. either/or sheet.
-Listen to Ravi’s talk, “Who is Jesus? Defending Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life,” given at the Mormon Tabernacle on Nov. 14, 2004. Discuss.
Present: Rob, Karl, Mark, Jon, Mike
Thoughts on Both/And vs. Either/Or:
Karl said that even at the sex-ed meeting, people were using the either/or to prove the both/and. I pointed out that it’s difficult to point that out to people.
Mike asked how we could even ever do that.
“That’s why we’re here,” I said.
Mark: We know that we have the truth, but we also know we don’t have everything figured out. What I’m trying to do is always learn people from. Addressed Robinson’s view of God—“If you have a God as he defines it, what is that God like? Everything is okay, and as soon as you get there you can let everything play out. He’s okay with everything. So what is holiness? You’re talking about right and wrong, good and evil. Hagel – came up with the idea of dialectic, an idea and its opposite meet in the middle - the basis of postmodernism, that is there are no absolutes.
Mike: Trying to apply this to real life, when you hear someone talk about sex ed, what are you hearing that makes you think about this kind of a conversation.
Jon: They have gone after the authenticity and veracity of Scripture, but I can’t think of any ways that they’re using the both/and system of logic. I’ll think about that.
Mike: I’m a girl but I have the body of a man. That’s a clear way of doing that…The Bible has clear answers, but there is scary stuff in the world that Christians don’t want to think about. Some people are born with a penis and a vagina. It sucks.
Rob: Made a point that the reformed view of predestination is a both/and view. When the both/and is involved, I’ll allow for the supernatural, but I don’t know how we can allow for that without the supernatural.
Mark: We can agree that there is a both/and…If you can look for common ground in any conversation, that’s good, then try to build a bridge to absolute truth…If a guy doesn’t believe in absolute truth, then you can’t do anything with him.
Mike: I do believe there is gray, and I do believe there is black and white. There are places where black and white breaks down, and I do think that’s what bothers a lot of these people, who are the secular leaders and minds of the world, is Christianity’s unwillingness to look at this gray thing and say, “No, I don’t know.” Just like sex ed, why these people are going after the Bible so much is there are places where children are born with both organs. What does the Bible say about that? There are things the Bible doesn’t have an answer for. There is gray. If there is going to be any kind of fruitful dialogue between the black and white, Christian conservatives and the both/and, liberal seculars is that you have to convince them of the possibility of black and white, and you have to tell them that there is gray.
Mark: Humility is what Mike is talking about. A lot of people view Christians as Bible-pounding and arrogant. We’re going out into a world where a lot of Christians have paved that ground.
Mike: I also think a lot of Christians are scared of not knowing everything, of not having an answer. That’s where Christians feel in a corner. You feel a lot of one-dimensional talk that you’ve heard before, because they’re scared—they don’t know how to deal with it. Christians need to learn to not worry about losing an argument—you can look at it as listening and taking other people’s points of view into your thinking.
Jon: What do you need as a Christian to not fear not having all the answers.
Mark and Rob: Faith.
Rob: It’s the root of humility…You claim that there is an all-powerful being that is in control and that you’re under but you contradict that with your actions.
Jon: Robinson immediately started talking about stories when he spoke of the Bible. Narratives are what postmodern minds connect to—Jesus and C.S. Lewis showed that stories have a way of disarming people’s defenses. We need to think of ways to talk comfortably and conversationally about stories, in the Bible or completely from outside the Bible, that represent truths of the Bible and truths of the gospel—the represent reality. What stories do not deliver, however, is immediate results, so we will need to be content with planting seeds.
Mike: It’s good to win arguments. You got to shake people up. It’s both/and…When someone says something to you—it’s almost depending on who you’re talking to. If you can see the things to say to someone that can really help them to understand God better, then do that, but there are times when some of the things you say aren’t’ useful to people. You have to be willing to let them say what they’re going to say and then incorporate that into your argument.
Jon: What do we need to know what to say to people and when.
Karl: You have to know your audience. Most people don’t want to speak about logic, but you need to able to argue logically to talk to people like Gene Robinson.
Mike: There are nuances—there is truth in what he said. But it gets to a point where he stops speaking truthfully.
Rob: He combined intellect and skillful logic with love. For the everyday man how do we gain an audience? I think it’s through love and service, and really doing it, not just because we want another notch on our belt b/c someone is saved, but unconditional love, down and dirty love for others and care for them.
Mark: If we can outlove the liberals, then you defeat the basis of so much of their effectiveness. You can love someone who is opposed to you, because you were opposed to God and he loved you…
Rob: 95 percent of our lives is lived in the one on one. That’s something we can all do…I don’t have the gift of writing, but I can love. Most humans can love.
Mark: We’re dealing with a lot of preconceptions that people have because Christians have not been loving…I can have 1,000 conversations in my life, but if I have a framework for what I want to do each time…that’s what I’m after. I just practice it.
Mike: We live in a time that’s trying to mesh it all together and figure it all out. You look at mankind—we’re depraved, we’re sinners, but Christians and non-Christians are trying to make things better through law and technology…
Mark: Possible assignment: find examples of what did Jesus do to break down arguments but still address the person.
Adding people:
Karl: The bigger this group is, the harder it is to do this.
Mark: If there was a good dynamic I wouldn’t want to rock the boat.
Mike: Let’s pick one. Whoever’s gonna add the most.
Rob: He initiated it.
Mark left. We listened to Ravi’s talk.
posted by stan at 12:52 AM
2 Comments:
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John
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